Thinking Outside the Design Box

OVERVIEW

In this episode of SYNKD On Air, host Angelique Robb sits down with Michael Bernier from Michael Bernier Design, a landscape architect with a unique journey in the industry.

Michael shares his experience transitioning from a career in graphic design to landscape architecture and starting his own business. He highlights the importance of understanding clients' visions and needs, bridging the gap between contractors and clients, and leveraging design skills to enhance projects.

Michael also discusses his recent venture into teaching landscape design to professionals, emphasizing the value of empathy, communication, and trust in the industry. Tune in to gain insights into the creative world of landscape architecture and discover how design can shape meaningful outdoor experiences.

Transcript

Angelique
Welcome to SYNKD On Air. It's Angelique Robb here. And today I have Michael Bernier from Michael Bernier Design. Hi Michael, how are you?

Michael
I'm doing very well. Thanks. How are you?

Angelique
I'm doing well. It's been a while since we met back at the Landscape Expo in Anaheim, what in November last year, so? Yeah. So landscape architect by trade, been in the business for quite a while, haven't you?

Michael
Well, I've been, I started, actually, gosh, I went back to school for landscape architecture, in 2005. So gosh, that's coming on 20 years. And I started practicing about 2008, and then started my own business in 2012. So it was a process, it took a while to get get things rolling, because it was a mid career change. I used to be in advertising and marketing, and found it to be soulless and empty. Well, no, it's, you know, actually, it was very creative. And it really pushed me and the beautiful thing is, is the things that I learned from being a creative director, I've been able to translate into being a really good landscape architect. And mostly on the way of dealing with my clients, how to handle my clients, and how to handle my team. I've been creative my whole life. So the design part, of course, translated, once I learned all the, the, and there was a lot to learn, you know, plants, materials, how it all comes together. But there was a lot I was able to transfer over. But it was a, it was a mid career shift. And it did not happen overnight.

Angelique
Well, and so I saw I think your degree was in graphic design, is that what you started in?

Michael
Yeah. And a whole other life a whole other century, I started in graphic design. This was just give me an idea. And I hate to hate to throw this out there. But to give you an idea how long ago was this was before computers were being used? It was still an art form actually, you know, it's funny, that's interesting, because it was still an art form. I was using my hands, we were dealing with materials that you know, it was it was physical, you had to draw, paint, design type thing. And then computers came in and obviously changed everything. And while that's been a very valuable tool to expedite, and obviously amp up creativity, now we've got AI to deal with. But that's a whole other subject. But what happened was, I was seeing how everything was so digital, and it was so it everything was on a you know, to this size, or let me put it that way it was to this size was no longer an art form that I was able to tangibly work with. And so I had this moment where I was just like, I don't know, if I want to keep doing this, I needed to do something real,

Angelique
But you liked it up until then? You liked the more physical art form.

Michael
Well, manual, my favorite part was, was creating commercials, TV commercials. there was so many different aspects to it and bringing so many elements in, you know, writers, the technical crew, and it was a very physical act, it was happening in real time and space. And it also helped me to learn how to tell a story. And but what I what I was struggling with was who I was working for. And I won't mention the global gigantic, high fructose company that I was working for. While I was working for an agency that that was our main client, and I just, I just like I have got to put my energy and effort into something that I feel good about. That matters to me. And I've always been an environmentalist and someone who loves nature and working. The idea of taking my creative skills and working with nature just simply seemed like the perfect marriage. So awesome. That's how it happened.

Angelique
Okay, well, good. Well, I love to hear the story of how people came into the industry. Because it is so unique. And a lot of people moved into the industry. Some people grew up in it, but some people discovered along the way too, so Well, great. So you said 2005, you went back to school to do landscape architecture. And then it took you a while to open up your practice or to learn everything.

Michael
Well, yeah, it did take a while. I actually started my business with a friend I met in landscape architecture school, who was also in marketing. And we both said, Hey, let's start a business together. I was a creative director up in Seattle, and I said, this is just not working. So I moved back to Los Angeles where I'm from and just said, Hey, let's let's do this. And we literally jumped in with two feet and And we're no longer together, we parted ways pretty early, but I've been doing it on my own now for 11, almost 12 years.

Angelique
Awesome. Okay, and what do you enjoy so much about it?

Michael
Well, the process is, is great. There's just so that that was one of the things that I love so much about, there's so many elements to it that have to come together and work. And now instead of working with just colors and fonts, and you know, a message on dealing with live plants, that, you know, that that has to be addressed, it's the things alive. So we have to deal with, where that's gonna go and the other materials and how everything works together. And so I love that part. And of course, you know, when a client sees the finished product, and I can see how much it moves them physically, emotionally. That's the other thing about advertising. You know, if you're lucky, you get someone to buy something, you know, whereas now, it's like, I get to see how someone can now use the space. And there's an emotional connection. And you know, one of my personal mission is to connect people back to nature. And that's the way to do it is to get people outside. And even if it's just their backyard, right? Yes. So, and then, of course, there's nothing more satisfying than putting a brand new Kangaroo Paw on the ground. And within minutes, a hummingbird comes in and starts going to town on it. And it's like, I'm helping nature. And to me, there's nothing better. It's awesome.

Angelique
Awesome. Well, and you've also so when I met you, you had a booth at the Landscape Expo. Hopefully I said that, right. And you were also giving a talk and stuff. And so this is a, I guess, another part of what you're offering now. So tell me a little bit more about that. Because that's very new, isn't it?

Michael
Yeah, it's very, very new. Being in the industry now for a dozen or so years. i Not that I've seen everything. But I feel like I've seen everything. And you work with so many different people and contractors and clients and whatnot. And I saw a very big gap between how contractors get their work done, and how they communicate. And how and I don't mean everybody I'm talking about the majority, of course, there's always exceptions, and clients and how they work and what they want and how to best deal with them. And I saw this gigantic just like these hills here chasm. And I was always the babysitter, I was always the bridge, which is fine, because that's what that's my job. That's what I earned my hard earned few dollars for, is to make sure that the I understand what the client wants, and to make sure that the contractor understands that and it gets done the way it's supposed to.

Angelique
And it's two separate perspective sometimes, isn't it?

Michael
Oh, not only the two, it's like two different planets. They speak different languages, they see the world completely different. It's like Mars and Venus. And so I saw an opportunity, a necessity actually, to, to help bridge that gap, and to introduce to contractors, Look, you guys are great at what you do. You know, regardless of the trade, whether it's painting, concrete, carpentry, or planting, irrigation, you name whatever it is you do, you're very good at it. And the key is, is you have to open it, take a step back and open up and see the whole project from the clients perspective, as the only way you're actually going to be able to, to really step up your business and make make a difference. Instead of just being a tradesman that you're hired, you know, to get the work done, you can actually have a bigger impact on the project and, and grow your business. And I think to do that, I think understanding design is the key to that. Because not only do you also you obviously have to learn people skills, which don't just say it most contractors are don't really have good people skills, just throwing it out there.

Again, not everybody my experience, though for several is you have to learn people skills, and but it because you have to be able to express what you are trying to accomplish. And the same thing from the client side if you can walk up to a client, and not only understand their vision, but help them expand and create the vision. And the only way to do that is to understand design. So when I sit when I work with a client, I don't just go there and say okay, tell me what you want. I'm writing all this down. I try to understand them better, and get a sense of what their vision is even beyond what they actually want and need. cuz that's what you're looking at why I want this. And I want this and I need this. And I've got this much to spend. My job is actually to say, Well, how about this? Have you thought about that have you? And it's normally I have this different background down here. But normally I have a background of my one of my favorite projects that I took the simple request of, hey, I've got grass between my house and my pool and some stepping stones, and I want something to go in between there. And I want and I want my dog to stop tracking mud into the house. That was the that was obviously we met. Yeah, that was the scope. Well, I took what was maybe a 15 to $20,000 spruce up and turn it into a like 85 or $90,000, outdoor living room and kitchen. Wow. I was able to show himself possible.

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, it's upselling. But you can't upsell unless you can make an emotional connection with clients. So what I did is I and what you saw at the at the show was I was launched, I launched a course called the Basics of Landscape Design for Professionals. So you can not only learn design, and how to use it in landscape projects, which obviously ups you know, increases your value and your build ability. I mean, you can build for that. But you you easily can grow the scope of the project from there. And then of course, I also teach some very basic people skills, like how to present yourself better how to listen to the client better, how to create a presentation that sells it's all about presentation. It's all about, hey, here's, here's this incredible vision, what do you think? Oh, my God, we love it. Let's do it. I just did it. I've just started a new project this week where I did that.

Angelique
Took what they wanted, and turned it into something much more? Is that what you mean?

Michael
Well, in this particular case, there, they were the perfect clients, they knew what they wanted, and they trusted me. Okay, it was the best client. So but then I'm glad I said that, because the key ingredient, your you know, when you're in the business of being a contractor, or designer for that matter, or even someone who sells a product, let's say you're selling firepits, or whatever, the the client has an idea what they want. They could call anybody look, I need this wall built. And they and you know, there's 1000s of masons out there who can do the job, they're gonna hire the person that they trust, and that they like, and they want to work with. So the more that you can present yourself as that person who is likable, understandable, and gets them. You're establishing trust, because ultimately, you're in the business of trust, not building brick walls. The more that your client trusts you, the more that you're going to be able to just increase your business.

Angelique
Well, I think, yeah, something that you said, made me think of, not only trust, but to build that trust, you have to actually listen to them, understand what they say, and translate that into something. That's a vision. And so that's, you know, what's funny, just the little story about my experience is, the reason I became a landscape designer is because I wanted somebody to do my back garden, and they pissed me off. They said, you don't want that you want this? And I was like...no

Michael
Well, I'm glad you mentioned that. Because, you know, to be a really good designer, and ultimately, the builder. You don't want to just take that and be an order taker, like decline when I want, you know, privacy screens here, I want to firepit over here, right. And that's why understanding design is so important. Because what you're going to say what you, you can look at the list of what they want. And then you take your expertise and say, Okay, I understand what you want. And let me show you how that's going to work better for you. You have to be able to tell them what because you're the Pro. Right? That's what I teach in the course. And that's what I do every day with with my coaches.

So to answer your question about this recent project, what it really is more about is understanding what they want and then what they need, like, what is what are you going to use this space for start there. It's called empathy. Like I want to feel and understand what your lifestyle is, like, how many people live here, do you have kids? Do you want to entertain? Dogs? You name it, everything fits into that equation. And then you take that information, and you say, okay, given what I understand about what you want, here's what I think is going to be best. And then you share it and then I don't like to use the word sell, because you're really not selling, you're basically saying this is what I think is best. And of course, everybody's got budgets they need to work with. But I almost, there's almost never been a time where I haven't been able to show them more. And they've been open to it and signed off on it. Very rarely does someone say No, I, this is all I've gotten, this is why we are so good. And I say, Okay, well, then let's working with that number. Let's make the best of it. And, again, good design will show you that because most contractors and again, ladies and gentlemen, I'm not picking on anybody, I'm just reflecting back what my experience has been. When you when you go into a project. It's like, what can I get done? How quick can I get done? And how fast can I get paid and move on to the next project? Okay, so you kind of have to let go with that mentality. I mean, you still need to do that to run your business efficiently, of course, but you need to take a step back and go what what's possible here, often optimize this.

Angelique
And I think that, you know, true to why we started SYNKD is, you know, by connecting design, build and maintain, you end up with a, a higher bar of a project, and clients. And so I think that, even if they understand the design a bit better, even you don't have to do the design to even understand it better. You know, understanding it better is like a step better than not even questioning it.

Michael
You can still hire a designer, and you may or may not actually do the installation yourself. But understanding the process and understanding how it all works. That in itself is worth, you know, like I believe that people are going to do well. First of all, let me make a distinction. The first course that I launched was for professionals. I'm also developing one for do it yourselfers. It will benefit the industry, because the more educated the clients are the people who do the half the homes, the better than these are makes our job. You know, like, like you just said for, for a homeowner to understand what it takes. Because let's be honest, most homeowners don't think landscape. Landscaping at all is cost what it costs.

Angelique
I think everybody comes across that. Yeah.

Michael
And so the more they understand, the more they know, the more they realize, because like if you're going to build a house, of course, you're going to hire an architect, right? And then they think, well, plants. Let's just get my gardener out here. And we'll throw some plants in the ground. It's like, no, there's so many things you have to take into account. And that's why we do what we do.

Angelique
Yeah.

Michael
You were attracted to. When you when you because you came to my booth. Yeah, yeah. Like, what's this, and we had the best conversation. And that's why I love what you're doing at SYNKD. Because, you know, there's there's opposite ends of the of the spectrum. There's landscape contractors, there's landscape architects. Well what you do is you bring it all together, and you tell the story, and you and you make sure that people understand it's all integrated.

Angelique
I also think that if you let's say, you know, one person does the design, another person is building it, there's always going to be something that, okay, is this level, this level isn't exactly as we thought it would be, you know, and you have to make some changes. I've done some designs, where the house builder built the garden, and they changed a few decisions here or there makes the job feel so different to what it would have felt like, and it's not major changes, but it impacted it, you know, negatively, quite badly, you know? So again, that's where I see, you know, the more let's say landscape architects understand construction methods, and vice versa, the better we can, you know, talk through the plans, make decisions, and come out with a quality product at the end.

Just a clarification. So in your design business, are you supervising the construction? Are you hiring people to build what how does it work in your design shop?

Michael
Yeah, great question. And add to what you just said, it's the perfect scenario is when we as designers have control over everything. And we know that we don't have control over anything in reality. So that's why communication is so important. I used there was a time when I was managing everything, the construction, the landscape, installation, everything. And I found that it was just it was just more than I was willing to take on and I wanted to move back into a design role. And I think that was it was around that same time was when I got inspired to do the course because I knew that there was still that gap that needed to be filled. So, for example, this current project I'm working on, I found a contractor, I have a pool of contractors that I work with. And they're building the concrete walls, the fire pit, they're building the deck, and they are directly contracted with the client, because that way, okay, they're, they're on the hook, it's their responsibility. That's the other thing, accountability is something that is just massively missing in this business. And my cat just walked in and is trying to get my attention. So pardon the meows. So I'm actually on an interview here. So hang on. Alright.

So the where was I, but what I do is that I also have a foreman in Landscape crews, that I manage directly, because, okay, that's something that I feel much more comfortable about, you know, just I get this, I can handle this. And I can fix anything that isn't going right. If someone does something pouring concrete and something goes wrong, and I can't fix it, so I want to make sure the right person is in charge for that. So yeah, so I Yeah, so I still manage, you know, most landscape installations. But again, it gives me control. I mean, any designer who's done a project knows that when they do a plan, that even though that plan is a it's really a guideline, when you're on site, and you're placing plants and stuff, everything changes are not everything, but a lot changes. Yeah, there's always adjustments. So I like to I like to have hands on for that.

Angelique
Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. Well, good. It sounds like you have a good viewpoint of the industry and working different ways, because you've worked, you know, fully control and then and outsourcing some of it. So that gives you a different perspective on how to how contractors can work with clients. And so you've just launched I think you were just launching it last November, where are you?

Michael
I introduced it at the show that I gave was basically a an expanded version of what you and I are talking about here. The talk, the title of the talk is Think Like A Client. Design Like A Pro. You know, everybody from contractors to designers can learn something from, I believe, can learn something from the course. So we did our first course in the winter with a handful of of contractors. And I'm now kind of revising things and just sharpening it up before I launched the next ones. I don't have a date yet, but I'll be launching another one. The goal is I'm doing live right now. Like like a zoom call, there's a session. I think it's eight weeks right now where I do weekly live sessions with videos and homework and things like that. And ultimately, once I get it nailed down and perfected, I'm gonna record the whole thing and have it live online. So anybody can take it anytime. That's, that's the plan. So like I said, the professionals, which has the very significant component of how to work with clients better. And then I'm doing the do it yourself version, where it'll be from the homeowners perspective of, okay, this is our house, we have $10,000, what can we do with it? I'm gonna walk them through the process of here's how you plan it out.

Angelique
Only $10,000?

Michael
I know, right? I'm dealing with that right now with a client that only has $10,000. And I'm just like, I really want to help you.

Angelique
I know.

Michael
We're, especially with we don't know what's happening with the economy, there's all kinds of talk about all kinds of things, but there's going to be more people going, okay, honey, let's go to Home Depot and do this ourselves. And we are know what that looks like if they don't know what they're doing. Right? And so this is my way of helping them get a plan. Create a plan, and do it at least do something right for that matter. And they can take whatever they get from the course or not get it. And again, at the end of the day, at least they're more educated. They may go you know what, we don't know what we're doing, let's hire that contractor after all, but they're gonna be a lot more educated and informed in doing so.

Angelique
And maybe even be able to cost it up a bit more themselves. Because I think, you know, we all get that well, the pavers are $50 a square foot. So why are you charging me this you know? Because pavers are such a small part of the whole construction piece. Yeah. So how did the first course go then?

Michael
Very easy. Well, I mean, it was it was the first one so there was learning from it. A lot of bumps in the road, but, you know, I had to, I had to kind of swallow some pride and take a step back and go, Okay, this, we're learning from this. I learned a lot from working with these guys too, they taught me a lot, you know, it was, it was a chance for me to understand what their wants and needs are too. And that way they can improve on the course as well.

Because I find as a designer, especially after, you know, starting many, many years ago in graphic design, and then getting into advertising, I see things from a very, very high perspective, like, you know, I'm looking at things that the average, even even a really good contractor is not going to need to understand about design. So it was about tweaking the language. You know, I base everything on principles, the principles of design that can be utilized, whether you're designing a chair, a house, a car, a piece of clothing, or a landscape, and I found that I need to make these a lot more specific to where do you put that cypress, you know, and where do you not put it? So that's okay. Okay. So I learned a lot as well.

Angelique
Well, you know, takes a lot to say that to that you have to rethink it and tweak things. And so it'll be even better the second time.

Michael
We're in tweak mode right now. Pretty significant to me, which is why I'm waiting to release it as a recorded product. I want to get it right before I you know, do it that way. Angelique So awesome. Well, yeah. On the road to quality, good. Michael I'm all about quality. Angelique Well, great. I think this has been a great introduction into your, your background and your business, and also what you're going to be doing in the future. So yes. Do you want to tell us about your so your your business is called Think Outside the course?

Michael
Yeah, but the I have two, two websites, michaelbernierdesign.com, which is my design business. And then www.thinkoutside.design. And I'm even wearing the shirt.Think Outside.Design, which is the platform, where is the like home base for all the educational products that I'm creating.

Angelique
Professional and the DIY?

Michael
Yeah, right now, the only thing that's on there is for professionals. And as we expand the courses, it's gonna go even more. And in fact, one of the things I learned, going back to the idea of too big of a perspective versus being more specific, I'm actually going to start doing workshops that are much smaller. And they're like one episode of an hour, hour and a half, where people can go on there much lower price. And for like, I don't know, I haven't come up with the exact price ever for like 30 $40, they can come on and learn a specific thing. And what we're doing right now, the one we're working on at the moment, especially here in Southern California, which even though we had a lot of rain this winter, we normally don't and we're you know, we still have a drought situation. So I'm in the process of ripping a lawn out and replacing it with a drought tolerant garden. And so that's our first workshop is how to how to take out a lawn and replace it with a drought tolerant garden.

Angelique
Oh, neat. Yeah. little bite sized chunks.

Michael
Bite size. And that way people get to know me a little bit better. They understand the material and then they can say, Yeah, I'm ready for the full Monty and can do the bigger course. That was part of the process also was well, how can we how can we give them little bits and pieces to chew on while we're developing the bigger course.

Angelique
Oh, awesome. Yeah. Awesome. Well, good luck with that, and you'll have to keep us posted. And yeah, show off some of your work sometimes. Well, great. Well, thanks, Michael for being on the show. And stay tuned for Aimee summary of this interview in Spanish.

Michael
Si Si. Muchas gracias.