In this episode of SYNKD On Air, host Angelique Rob interviews Joe Wadkins, also known as Ask JW, about the evolution of synthetic turf. They discuss how the industry has grown into a multi-billion dollar market with installations increasing by 20% annually. Joe shares unique applications of synthetic turf, including a soccer field on a rooftop, enabled by a drainage grid system. They explore recent innovations, such as fully permeable turf for pets and playground surfaces, which help conserve water and maintain a cooler environment.
JW highlights his role as a trainer, traveling the country to teach installation teams, and announces his upcoming speaking engagement at the Australian sports field and play conference.
Angelique
Welcome to SYNKD On Air I'm your host, Angelique Rob with SYNKD. Today I have Joe Wadkins with me, or Ask JW is what we should say? Or J Dub?
Joe
I guess. J Dub.
Angelique
Great. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. You have been with us before, but in the publication. And first off, I guess our first issue with you in it was in January 2021, where we talked about the evolution of synthetic turf and how far things have come from when it was first invented. What in the 1950s? Yeah, and so, you know, I thought maybe you could tell us, so that was in 2022. Is that right? Yeah. So and things have progressed even more, since you want to fill us in, catch us out?
Joe
You know, the industry has been exploding. There's so many different new products that are out on the market today that are creating new applications for synthetic turf. And it's actually become a multi-billion dollar industry. The synthetic turf installations have been growing, you know, 20% every year.
Angelique
Wow, that is huge. That's a big number.
Joe
Yeah, every year.
Angelique
Well, and the next time we worked with you was when we launched the West region. We only did that late last year. And you were in the first issue for a unique application as well. So I loved that.
JW
Rooftop?
Angelique
Yeah.
Joe
Soccer field on top of a rooftop.
Angelique
Yeah. So tell us more about that. Yeah, that's great.
Joe
The rooftop installations have have gotten really popular due to the spaces that are actually sitting with no one on it. parking garages. The soccer field that we did was actually on the last floor of a parking garage. So they decided to create it into a usable space. So they went ahead and put a little mini soccer field on top. It was structurally sound for that. So we actually used a drainage grid below the turf.
Angelique
Air drain.
Joe
Yeah, the drain grid.
Angelique
That was the first time I'd heard of that. Yeah. So how new is that product?
Joe
Well, the air drain grid has been around for a couple of decades. And when it first started, it was actually made for sheets for fields. They were putting that grid under fields and 10 foot rolls when I first had my hands on it. And then they then it's evolved, so they made it user friendly. For the first sections are 32 inches by 32 inches. It's a plastic grid. It's made of a high composite plastic, which it's it's been down for I have had a few projects down for quite a while now 15 years, and some projects pulled up and put back down on it. And it's a drainage grid, elevates the turf up, allows aeration, allows the water and fluids to drain through it. And then take it wherever it's got to go. And now like I said, they come in user friendly of 32 inches by 32 inches, sections that they put together. And then once you put them all in, you just slap the turf on top and fill in and you're ready to go.
Angelique
Wow, that is so cool that you know, a space that nobody wants to park in anyway, up on the top of the garage, and now kids are using it to practice soccer on. I think that's fantastic. And you'd mentioned earlier that these kind of unique installations are kind of taken off.
Joe
Yeah, the anything above level, taking up room that there's a lot of balconies, mezzanines, and people are taken onto the rooftop installation of synthetic turf. It allows a space for people to go up and enjoy. And also there's areas where some of the hotels are actually putting pet areas up there as well. For pets to do and do their duty.
Angelique
Awesome, well, what other innovations have we seen recently coming through the manufacturers.
Joe
Well, you know, other than just regular landscape lawns? We have a sport industry that has exploded as well with all different types of new innovations for sports fields and sporting areas. Do you have the pet areas that are being placed today? It's a growing industry of synthetic turf pet installations, mainly due to the systems being elevated as well like with a drainage grid or air drain, or for it to aerate and for the fluids to be washed through and be able to be flushed. But it also, the products alone have evolved. You know, in the days, most pet turf products were designed with drainage holes every four to six inches on center. Well now products are being developed where they are 100% permeable, where they drain through the whole product, and additionally have perforated holes in them. So instead of the urine and the uric acid and the feces, you know harboring within the fibers and in that pocket, they're now able to be flushed through.
Angelique
Okay, so more of a woven back.
Joe
Yeah, it's more of a it's tufted still, but it looks woven. On the backing. It's a different color. It's a different, totally different manufacturing process. But it's amazing. I mean, you got to get some hands on it.
Angelique
Yeah, yeah, that sounds good.
Joe
They're also creating that same product for playgrounds, because playgrounds have actually taken off as well, because as you know decades ago, we still play on pea gravel, and crumb rubber, you know, the wood chips. And, and so now, you know, the synthetic turf has taken storm on the playgrounds, because you know, the longevity of that system. And now there's shock pads that are developed to go underneath playground systems. So you could get your hit numbers or head injury criteria, they test for fall heights, the critical fall heights on playgrounds. So you know, the synthetic turf evolved quite a bit on the playground side. And, and also the products also are fully 100% permeable, which allows a cooler system to aerate and flow through as well.
Angelique
Yeah. And so that the air drain or having more drainage through the turf will actually keep it cooler?
JW
Well, it's when you have a product that is 100% permeable, if the water is going to be draining 100% through then that means the air is going to be able to be able to escape. Well, yeah, yeah. Keeps a surface a little bit cooler.
Angelique
Yeah. Oh, that is good. Yeah. All kinds of good stuff. Right. And so I guess in the West, you know, I'm, I'm not in the western US, but you are. So you're an expert in that area, too. But there's a lot of other other benefits that even did you say that it was from the water authority, that they're actually paying people to replace their natural turf with artificial turf? Is that right?
Joe
Yes, it's the here are the Southern Nevada Water Authority is paying up to $3 per square foot to remove your natural grass and replace it with either a landscape rock or a synthetic turf. So it used to be $1 per square foot, but since the water shortages have came about, it's now it's got up to $3 per square foot, which is pretty much pays for most of the material to have a synthetic turf installation put in. And the savings annually, you're spending up to $840 for either lawn care, you know, pesticides, it just adds up, including, you know, the water, it's averaged about 1000 which is the biggest thing $2,000 a year. In our region here, where the rebates and how they're saving, if if you take out 1000 square feet of lawn, you're gonna save up to 55,000 gallons of water every year, just for 1000 square foot of natural grass.
Angelique
Wow. Yeah, that's, those are big numbers. Yeah. And, I mean, we, we've all seen, you know, how the West has had the water shortages, and it's really affected people. I mean, we need water to survive, you know, we need to prioritize where it goes. So, the water authorities acting on that basis.
Joe
And the, you know, municipalities are actually impressed with, you know, the evolution of of this synthetic turf because of its its makeup and look and realistic feel and especially the permeation you know, some of the cities will not give rebates if the synthetic turf does not permeate. Putting greens are not manufactured to permeate. Due to that they have excessive water, it's going to to effect the sub bass and soften it, and caused regular ball roll. But, you know, they're very impressed with the evolution of the turf and its fibers, especially because of the fiber technology and it's UV inhibitors. It prevents color fading and combats UV degradation. And it actually gives longer warranties that we used to have an eight year warranty. And then it's been and now landscape turf is up to 15 year warranties on the on the system because of this stuff.
Angelique
Yeah, yeah. And so there's actually a lot of events is not just in the backing of the turf, but the actual the blades, if you like of the turf.
Joe
You know, it starts out as a pellet, liquid, and then it goes into extruding where it becomes a fiber. But like I said, the evolution is already the ad UV inhibitors. There's some synthetic turf out there that has micro ban and cooling technologies within that fiber. It's exciting, exploding, and plus a texture that shapes you know, synthetic turf used to be a Monetate flat fiber. And now there's all different types of shape. There's S shaped, C shaped, W shaped patterns. And mainly those are designed for for high traffic. So it allows passiveness for the fiber and also gives longevity to the system.
Angelique
Yeah. Wow. And then you go around the country doing unique installations as well as teaching people.
Joe
I mainly do training and teaching. So if I don't actually do the I'm out there installing with them on my knees and the point, you know, in this industry when you're teaching, seeming and this but yeah, I travel the nation and go and teach teams and how to be more productive and profitable in their installation processes. Angelique And you're traveling soon you have a conference halfway across the world, too, don't you? JW Yes, I was very blessed and grateful to be asked to speak at the Australian sports field and play conference in Sydney. At the end of August.
Angelique
Yeah, good. Okay, so get jetlag ready.
Joe
That's what I hear.
Angelique
Oh, that'd be fun. Well, awesome. Well, and yeah, I, you know, we do have a lot of roof tops that are coming up in our upcoming issues that a lot of companies are putting rooftop gardens for their employees to enjoy, you know, again, you know, with COVID. I think, you know, companies are realizing if if people are going to come to work, if they're going to make them come to work, Let's enhance the spaces. So it does seem to be a growing trend that we have a lot more rooftop gardens all over the country. Not just in the big cities where I think it just it started in the big cities where you had had no more space. But yeah, it is coming.
Joe
It's going everywhere, even a Major League Baseball, corporate offices up on the high rise that design synthetic turf, four hits, you know, social area. But there's a lot of things to look out for when you are going to be putting in rooftops, you have to make sure that you understand when you first actually want to have it on your rooftop, you're adding additional weight. So that's one thing you have to check and see if your rooftop balcony mezzanine will be able to hold the weight because you know, some synthetic turfs when they're on a rooftop, you're going to be putting up to five to six pounds, maybe eight pounds of material on top of that roof. And also the product itself. When you're doing any type of rooftop or mezzanine or balcony, you don't want to be putting an aggressive real high face weight turf because you're going to need to infill it with the granules to get that ballast.
So the the wind lift, you know synthetic turf is designed for there is synthetic turf that is non infill but unless you've secure it down, you have to you have to protect yourself where for wind lift, there is a quite a bit of calls that I get across the nation of sections that people just lay down on top of TPO roof and then the wind comes down on top of a car you know, so, you know you have to understand the structural part of it before you decide to go into that. And then number two you have to not only securing but the drainage Are you gonna have proper drainage, do you have drainage there? And and then you have to understand the ballast where you have to place the infill in there. So if you have a lighter product so that you could get weight in there to protect yourself. Yeah, and then you're gonna have add more weight on that structure. So you have to add whatever product you have how much infill weights, you're going to be if you're going to be using a drainage grid below it, you have to add all those up because those numbers will affect the structural integrity of the building.
Angelique
Yeah. And, of course, you know, these buildings, maybe weren't designed for that at the time of construction. Yeah. So you do need to keep that in mind. You do mention that in the soccer on the roof. When we featured you in the West as well. Your project that you did have to have to add the infill, far when wind lift? Yeah, no that's fantastic.
Joe
Yeah, we put a system up there that was allowed to get four pounds per square foot in that, which is I feel minimum for a rooftop. And then you also have to respect the having a product test that's going to be able to pass the field test and have an E 108. rating. It's a fire rating. Because if you put up the synthetic turf up on the balcony, and your product doesn't go through fire rating testing, then you might be liable for a major catastrophe.
Angelique
Yeah. Yeah. You've got very good point.
Joe
Got any Synthetic turf out there. You need to do a pill test on it. And if you need to understand what the pill test is, you know, you can either give me a call, or or I could explain it right now.
It's actually a big pill that looks like a big aspirin. And it was developed decades ago for carpet. And what they do is they heat it up to quite a bit of 1000s degrees, and then they drop it on the product. And then if the product catches fire, then you know it failed. But then after the test is done, they'll measure how much diameter as was affected by that heat, and how much it spread to see if it did pass that fire rating.
Angelique
Oh, good. Yeah. Strange name for it. But yeah, at the heat test.
Joe
Yeah it looks like a big aspirin. So that's why they call it the pill test?
Angelique
Oh, gosh, yeah. A lot more to consider than you think.
Joe
A lot of like I mentioned, the pets that are up on on those areas, pet areas, they jump up there, the contractors are honored. And they'll throw that up there thinking they're doing the right thing, but they don't understand that, that uric acid that's in the urine, it's hard to get out if you don't maintain it. And if you're going to be up on top of a roof top TPO, you've got to make sure that the service below is going to be able to flow if it's aggressive, or how do I say if it's a rough surface, then your fluids might not flow, especially if you don't have any drains. So you have to be careful with that. I have seen places back east where they have rooftops and I have gotten phone calls because of it wasn't there was no drainage whatsoever. And then puddles of water had developed below that and the you start might maybe have a little smell or you know, bacteria or even mosquitoes, you know, harping on so make sure if you're going to be doing rooftops that you have positive drainage, and I always do a water test prior to even installing it.
Angelique
Yeah, yeah. Well, fantastic. Gosh, and we have some more things coming from you some projects that you've been working on, doing like green roofs with artificial turf. So that's going to be coming later. Again, different applications of artificial turf and what do you see coming in the future?
Joe
Right now? Is that an explosion on putting rates? Okay, yeah, and bocce courts, okay. But the putting Gordon putting greens are the putting green products are evolving too as well. The surfaces of these completed are playing natural step meter speeds. A step meter is a tool that was developed in the late 1930s that will measure the speed of the ball. And so now we have products out there that will simulate true stimulators speeds that will simulate natural grass areas. We also have on the market today. A synthetic turf putting green product that's allowed to take shots from 120 yards away and hold them. So when you're driving a ball on them, yeah.
Angelique
So I'm not a golfer, but that sounds a bit crazy that it will hold the ball. Yeah, hold the shot. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's neat. Always something like this just shows why we need to get an update each year and how things are progressing in the industry and what the newest developments are changing all the time. So thanks J dub, where can people find you?
Joe
Well, they could reach me at my hotline number at (888) 846–3598. Or they could check out Google Ask JW. And they could read all the 1000s of articles and blogs that I've written.that may assist them.
Angelique
Great. And you're also on the synthetic turf council as well. So, yes, getting very involved in the council.
JW
Yeah, we have a conference coming up in New Orleans. So if you guys want to learn a lot, and then come around the industry and understand what's going on,
Angelique
That's close our office. So that would be great. Yeah, you have to send me more details on that. And yeah, look forward to learning more about the technology and seeing some of the, you know, the permeable turf, because, again, you know, water is a big issue, not only in the western states where it's more publicized, but it's also an issue in the southern states, because people don't appreciate that it's a finite resource. So, you know, the things that I'm hearing, even in Louisiana, which is quite a wet state, is that our freshwater aquifers are depleting. I've heard the same for other southern states, and, you know, too many impermeable surfaces, you know, around the state, and water is not able to permeate to the aquifer. So, you know, it's more of an issue everywhere than just the West, I think the West is, has always felt it a bit more than than we have in the rest of the states. But it is an issue everywhere.
Joe
Well, it's exploding back in the East as well. And this area's because, you know, people want that green, green, and green. And even if they have enough water, even up in Florida there that it's exploding in Florida, as well, the synthetic turf industry, all around there, it's because of beautification, you know, the products out there, just amazing, you know, the tri color fibers, de Lestrade, fibers, all different types of shapes, yarns, colors. And you know, the manufacturers are really competing hard against each other to produce every year, a new product, that's going to be a wow factor.
Angelique
Well, and it's funny, because I guess before I got into landscape design and build, you know, I guess I thought it was just people that didn't want the maintenance issues, but there's so many other applications, you know, where grass is, it's impossible for grass to grow. And like you were saying playgrounds, and I guess that was before I had kids, and I didn't realize how hard it would be to have, you know, real grass around a playground and cut it and kids, you know, wearing holes in the turf.
Joe
In the western region, we have a lot of poured in place rubber rounds. And what happens is every year, you have to reseal that due to the delamination of the little rubber granules. And they have to clean out that urethane every year to keep that elasticity going. And so it's happening. Some of these cities don't have the budget to do this every year. So it starts chunking out, and then it becomes unsafe. And so you know, when you have that going on, within a year, year and a half, two years, it's a no brainer to put in the newest synthetic turf systems out there with a sharp pen underneath it.
Angelique
Gosh, I didn't realize you'd have to re glue it every year.
Joe
I'm actually certified in Chrome rubber the important place chrome rubber. And, and what's happened is you have to keep that service from drying out, especially in Phoenix or Las Vegas, where the heat so great, UV sunlight will just, you know, just eat it alive. The aliphatic urethanes that they put on to seal these are very, very thin millage. So when it gets beat up and starts because you have to encapsulate those rubber granules in that completely. Yeah, okay. Not really completely because then that'll stop your hit Test figures but it's so thin that it has to flow through there and lock them in to a certain amount because if you put on a heavy urethane then you're going to lose your head injury criteria numbers from it being flexible, can't be so fragile. And these hotter regions, they do laminate a lot quicker. And so this synthetic turf these new synthetic turf systems with shock pads underneath them is a no brainer. You know you got my feet as long as they're maintained and the infill levels are put up there so that you keep your hit numbers and your it's a no brainer.
Angelique
I've learned a lot about head injuries today. Preventing them. Not that I'm on playgrounds much these days. But you know, that's great for, you know, the landscape architects and designers that are working on those projects and will probably need to consult you For more advice as well. So great. Well, thanks for Yeah, educating our audience. And thanks to Turfs Up radio for having us on. We always appreciate that they have us on their radio station and we go out to lots of listeners. So yeah, hope you'll continue to listen in to our show and look forward to seeing you in New Orleans.